This Date in Aviation History: October 12 - October 14

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 10/14/2016 at 12:35 • Filed to: Planelopnik, planelopnik history

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Welcome to This Date in Aviation History , getting of you caught up on milestones, important historical events and people in aviation from October 12 through October 14.

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October 13, 1930 – The first flight of the Junkers Ju 52. Throughout the history of aviation, there are only a small handful of aircraft that have exceeded fifty years of service. Such a milestone can only be reached by truly breakthrough designs that can stand the test of time and remain relevant long after they were conceived. One member of the fifty-year club is the Junkers Ju 52. But the tri-motor aircraft we know today was not the aircraft’s original form. The 52 had its roots in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a single-engine transport and cargo plane that was developed from the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , the world’s first all-metal transport plane. Junkers took the cantilever monoplane design, made sturdy with its corrugated duralumin fuselage, and enlarged it to increase the passenger and cargo capacity. With power coming from a single Junkers or BMW liquid-cooled V-12 engine, the Ju 52/1m (1 motor) was underpowered for its size and weight. After the first seven aircraft were built, the Ju 52/1m became the Ju 52/3m with the fitting of three !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! air-cooled radial engines, one in the nose and one each on the wings. This configuration would later be copied by Ford for their  !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and Junkers successfully sued to block the sale of Trimotors in Europe. The 3m proved to be an exceptionally rugged and reliable aircraft, and entered service with Lufthansa as a civilian airliner before the outbreak of WWII. But, by 1935, with the nationalization of the German aviation industry, the Ju 52 became an instrument of war. The size and strength of the 52 was ideal for transport, cargo and paratroop operations, earning it the nickname Iron Annie . It had its baptism of fire with the Colombian Air Force in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of 1932-1933, and with Bolivia in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! of 1932-1935. The Ju 52 made its debut in combat with the Luftwaffe during the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

German paratroopers jump from a Ju 52 during the Battle of Crete

However, by the start of WWII, its lack of speed (it was only half as fast as the British !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ) meant that combat operations required fighter escort. In one disastrous mission in Holland early in the war, 278 Ju 52s were lost either to anti-aircraft fire or crashes in boggy fields, a record for the most losses of a single type in a single day. But despite the shortcomings of what was by all accounts an obsolete aircraft at the start of the war, the Ju 52 served throughout WWII because the Germans really had no other aircraft that could perform the job in great numbers. German production of the Ju 52 ended with the fall of Germany in 1945, but continued for two more years in factories they had built in France. In Spain, where it is known as the CASA 352, production continued until 1952. In all, over 4,800 aircraft were built and, and the Ju 52 was flown by 38 nations. The last country to operate the Ju 52 militarily was Switzerland, who retired their last aircraft in 1982. (Top photo by Markus Kress via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; second photo author unknown)

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October 14, 1964 – The first flight of the Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion. In much the same way that the jet engine revolutionized fixed wing aviation, the turboshaft engine became the preferred powerplant for helicopters, as it offered greater power and speed over its piston-powered predecessors. In 1960, both the Army and Marine Corps were looking for a replacement for the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , with the Army eventually settling on the twin-rotor !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . In 1962, the US Navy issued a request for a Heavy Helicopter Experimental (HHX), searching for a helicopter that could carry up to 8,000 pounds, have an operational radius of 100 nautical miles and a speed of 170 mph. In order to save money, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara pressured the Marine Corps to adopt the Chinook, but they argued that their requirements were significantly different from those of the Army. In particular, they expressed the need for a watertight hull, and they preferred to accept the offering from Sikorsky, which was basically an enlarged version of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . After an intense competition, the Marines selected the YCH-53 over the Chinook, announcing in 1962 that it would procure two prototypes for further testing. (The US Air Force would later adopt the CH-53 as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for combat search and rescue). The CH-53 had a six-bladed main rotor that was borrowed from the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (CH-54 Tarhe), a watertight hull (not intended for amphibious operations, the hull only allows emergency landings on water), and was powered by a pair of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turboshaft engines mounted on pods outside the aircraft. Successively more powerful engines were added as development of the helicopter continued. The Sea Stallion had a crew of four and, depending on the mission could carry 38 troops, or 24 stretchers with attendants, or an internal cargo payload of 8,000 pounds. An external load of 13,000 pounds could be slung underneath the aircraft. The CH-53 saw immediate action in the Vietnam War, where it played a vital role in troop and materiel transport and search and rescue. At the end of America’s involvement in the war, the size of the Sea Stallion aided tremendously in the evacuation of troops and civilians from Saigon as part of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The Sea Stallion proved its mettle in every conflict since Vietnam, but was finally retired in 2012 after service in Afghanistan in favor of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a significantly upgraded and modernized version of the heavy lifter that benefits from the addition of a third turboshaft engine. (US Navy photo)

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October 14, 1947 – Chuck Yeager breaks the sound barrier in the Bell X-1. On December 17, 1903, the Wright Brothers made their historic First Flight. Taking off from the dunes of Kitty Hawk, NC, their flight covered a distance 120 feet at a speed of 6.8 mph and, ever since that date, aircraft designers have sought ever greater speed. But as the world entered the age of jet- and rocket-powered flight during WWII, the last great landmark of speed was the speed of sound, or Mach 1, about 767 mph depending on altitude and conditions. Nobody really knew what to expect when an aircraft broke the sound barrier. During the war, rocket planes and airplanes in a steep dive had come close, entering the realm of transonic flight, where they discovered that the shockwaves that formed on the aircraft severely inhibited the ability of the control surfaces to move, or even cause them to reverse. While some German pilots made claims to breaking the sound barrier in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! rocket plane, it was the British who made the first attempts at supersonic flight with the turbojet-powered !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . An extremely advanced aircraft for its time, the M.52 pioneered the use of a powered !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , or flying tail, in which the entire horizontal tailplane moved, rather than just the stabilizers on the trailing edge of the tail to deal with the problems of control at high speed. Though the project was ultimately canceled, much of the groundbreaking work in supersonic aerodynamics would find its way to Bell as part of an agreement to share technical data on high-speed flight. Bell had already begun work on a supersonic rocket plane, but they had been employing a conventional tail, and with it came the problems of compressibility at transonic speeds. With the data from the M.52 in their hands, Bell adopted the all-moving powered stabilator and the problem was solved. Where the Miles M.52 was powered by a turbojet, the X-1 was powered by a four-chamber !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! liquid fuel rocket, with each chamber providing 1,500 lbf of thrust. The chambers could be added one at a time to increase speed. The X-1's maiden flight, a gliding test in Florida, took place on January 25, 1946. After a successful series of glide tests, the X-1 was taken to Muroc Army Air Field in California, modern day !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for powered tests. Bell chief test pilot !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , who flew all the glide tests, had died on August 30, 1946 while practicing for the National Air Races in Cleveland, and another Bell test pilot, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , demanded $150,000, the equivalent of about $1.6 million today, to make the flight. So the task fell to Chuck Yeager.

Yeager began his military career as an enlisted aircraft mechanic before training as a pilot, and he became an ace while flying the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in WWII. Two days before the historic flight, Yeager broke two ribs in a horse riding accident, but he hid the injury from the Air Force so he wouldn’t be barred from flying. The pain from the injury made it impossible for him to close the hatch on the X-1, so fellow pilot !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! rigged a broom handle to the door to allow Yeager to close it. Yeager had nicknamed the X-1 the Glamorous Glennis , the same name he had given his Mustang, after his wife, and on October 14, 1947, Yeager and the X-1 were taken aloft and dropped from a modified !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Yeager fired the rocket engine after falling clear of the B-29, and the X-1 became the first plane to break the speed of sound in level flight, flying at Mach 1.07 at an altitude of 45,000 feet. After the engines burned out, the X-1 glided to a soft landing on the dry lake bed of Muroc. For his historic flight, Yeager was awarded both the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! Trophies in 1948, and he received the Harmon International Trophy in 1954. The Glamorous Glennis now resides at the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in Washington DC. Yeager would continue to set more speed records, and held various Air Force commands before retiring at the rank of brigadier general. Not only was the data gleaned from the X-1 flights used in future X planes and supersonic aircraft, the entire test and evaluation program served as a model for all future !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! projects. This has led to aircraft such as the recently retired !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! which routinely flew at three times the speed of sound, to the experimental !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! hypersonic aircraft, which has reached speeds approaching Mach 10. It is also worth noting that !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! was still alive when Yeager broke the sound barrier, though he died two months later. The world had gone from the first flight to Mach 1 in the span of one man’s life. (US Air Force photos)

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October 14, 1938 – The first flight of the Curtiss P-40 Warhawk. The Curtiss P-40 Warhawk has become one of the iconic aircraft of WWII, perhaps best known for its service with the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! fighting in China, where the Flying Tigers, in their classic shark-mouthed P-4os, fought admirably against more maneuverable Japanese aircraft. And while the P-40 wasn’t the fastest, nor the most nimble fighter of the war, it was one of the most numerous, and was available to America and her allies in numbers before more powerful fighters could be brought to bear. The Warhawk traces its roots back to the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , a fighter that was designed at the same time as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . It proved popular with pilots and, though it saw limited action at the outbreak of WWII, the P-36 fought well for the French in the early years of the war. But while the P-36 handled well, it suffered from a lack of power. The P-40 was developed from the tenth P-36A Hawk airframe and, rather than using the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! radial of the P-36, the Warhawk was fitted with an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! V-12 engine, the same engine found in the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and the only operational American-designed V-12 liquid-cooled engine developed by the US during the war. Interestingly, the original P-40 design called for the radiator to be placed behind the pilot, but the Curtiss-Wright sales department asked that it be moved to the front, perhaps in an attempt to make the P-40 look more like its P-36 predecessor to make it more appealing to the Army. The radiator placement gave the P-40 its iconic shark mouth silhouette, and the rear-mounted radiator would later become the trademark of another famous fighter, the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . A major drawback for the new fighter, though, was its single-stage, single-speed supercharger. But what the Warhawk gave up in performance it made up for in ruggedness and firepower. The lack of power limited the Warhawk’s performance against more powerful German aircraft at high altitudes, but it more than held its own under 16,000 feet. And while more nimble aircraft, such as the Japanese !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , could outmaneuver the Warhawk, the development of effective tactics gave it an edge against the fragile Japanese designs. The P-40 was developed into a myriad of variants, including the P-40F and P-40L, both of which mounted a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! V-12 in place of the Allison. But with the majority of the Merlin engines going to the P-51, Curtiss reverted to the Allison engine, and it was the P-40N that became the definitive model and was produced in the greatest numbers, with 5,220 of the nearly 14,000 fighters built as the P-40N.

P-40N, showing cut out fuselage for improved visibility

The N retained the stretched fuselage that was introduced with the F, and attempts were made to further lighten the aircraft by removing two of the six wing-mounted .50 caliber machine guns. But in practice, the added firepower was preferable to the increase in speed and the guns were replaced. The metal fuselage behind the pilot was opened up and covered with plexiglass to improve rearward visibility, and the rugged, powerful fighter was used primarily for ground attack from 1944 onward. The P-40 was the third most-produced American WWII fighter, behind !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (15,660) and the P-51 Mustang (15,586). The P-40 was also exported to almost every Allied combatant in WWII, and found great success with the Royal Air Force and Royal Australian Air Force, where it was known as the Tomahawk and later the Kittyhawk. (XP-40 in flight via US Air Force; P-40N photo by Rror via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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Short Takeoff

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October 12, 1997 – The death of John Denver. Denver is best known as a successful singer and song writer, but he was also an avid pilot, with over 2,700 hours of experience and pilot ratings single- and multi-engine aircraft, as well as glider and instrument ratings. On the day of his death, Denver was practicing touch-and-go landings at Monterey Peninsula Airport in California in his !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (N555JD). The builder of the aircraft (not Denver) had placed the fuel gauge and switch for the two fuel tanks behind the pilot’s seat, making it very difficult to monitor the fuel and operate the switch. NTSB crash investigators !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! that Denver attempted to twist his body to operate the switch, lost control of the aircraft, and crashed into Monterey Bay. Investigators also cited unfamiliarity with the aircraft and an insufficient fuel load at takeoff as factors in the crash. (Long-EZ photo—not accident aircraft—via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ; Denver photo Hughes Television Network via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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October 12, 1976 – The first flight of the Sikorsky S-72, a hybrid helicopter/fixed wing aircraft that was produced in conjunction with NASA and the US Army. Assembled from different parts of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! helicopters, the goal of the research program was to allow in-flight measurements of helicopter rotor characteristics prior to fitting them on prototype helicopters, though the S-72 was also capable of flight without a main rotor. The S-72, also called the Rotor Systems Research Aircraft (RSRA), took its first full compound flight in 1978, but the program was canceled in 1988. (NASA photo)

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October 12, 1964 – The launch of Voskhod 1, the seventh manned space flight of the Soviet space program. Based on the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! spacecraft, Voskhod 1 had an added solid-fuel retro-rocket fitted to slow its descent. The flight is notable as being the first to carry three crewmen into orbit—a cosmonaut, an engineer and a physician—and also the first in which the cosmonauts did not wear spacesuits. The bulky spacesuits were removed so that all three cosmonauts could fit into a capsule designed for only two. The standard ejection seats were also removed and replaced with three simple couches. The flight set an altitude record of 209 miles above the Earth, and the crew primarily carried out biomedical research. After 24 hours in space, Voskhod 1 returned to Earth on October 13. (Photo author unknown)

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October 13, 1972 – An airliner carrying a rugby team and other passengers crashes in the Andes. The chartered !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , carrying 45 passengers and crew, crashed in the Andes on their way to a match in Chile when the crew started their descent too soon through a fog-shrouded mountain pass. Twelve passengers died as a direct result of the crash, and five more died the following day from their injuries. A further eight died in an avalanche, and the remaining victims resorted to cannibalism to survive. After two survivors walked for nine days to find help, the remaining sixteen survivors were finally rescued on December 23, two months after the crash. Their ordeal was dramatized in the 1993 feature film !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . (Photo by Pedro Escobal via Wikimedia Commons)

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October 13, 1950 – The first flight of the Lockheed L-1049 Super Constellation, the first major variant of the original L-1049 Constellation to enter production. Faced with competition from the rival !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , which could carry more passengers (and generate more revenue), Lockheed added eighteen feet to the fuselage which added as many as 106 passengers, increased the fuel capacity, fitted larger windows and improved the cabin heating and pressurization. The result was an aircraft that equaled the DC-6 in performance, and though it had a shorter range it could carry a greater payload. The Super Connie also served with the USAF as a transport and part of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! (AWACS) as the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . (Photo by Ralf Manteufel via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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October 14, 2012 – Felix Baumgartner sets a new altitude record for a parachute jump. The jump was part of the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! project, which set out to break the parachute altitude record of 102,8oo ft held by US Air Force !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! set during the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! project in 1960. Stepping out of a capsule suspended from a balloon, Baumgartner dove from an altitude of 128,097 feet and reached a speed of 1,357.64 mph, becoming the first person to break the speed of sound without a vehicle. Baumgartner’s record would stand for just two years before it was broken by  !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , who jumped from 135,890 feet. (Photo via !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

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October 14, 1962 – A US Air Force !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! reconnaissance flight over Cuba discovers Russian-built ballistic missile launching facilities, triggering the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . Following the failed !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in 1961, as well as the presence of American missiles in Italy and Turkey, Cuba requested that the Soviets place missiles in Cuba to deter any more American action against the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! government. The US demanded that the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! medium-range nuclear missiles be removed and, after a tense 13-day stand off highlighted by low-level US reconnaissance flights over Cuba and an American naval blockade of the island that put the world on the brink of nuclear war, the Russians backed down and agreed to dismantle the sites and remove the missiles. (Department of Defense photo)

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October 14, 1953 – The first flight of the North American X-10, an unmanned aircraft powered by two !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! turbojets and designed to investigate the development of long-range cruise missiles. Though essentially a flying missile, the X-10 was fitted with landing gear which made the aircraft reusable. It had a delta wing and forward !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for control, and was controlled in flight by an onboard computer. When the X-10 entered service for testing, it was the fastest turbojet-powered aircraft of its day, with a maximum speed of Mach 2 and could reach an altitude of 49,000 feet with a range of 627 miles. Thirteen research aircraft were built, though only one survives, and it is housed at the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Ohio. (US Air Force photo)

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October 14, 1949 – The first flight of the Fairchild C-123 Provider, a transport and cargo aircraft designed by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and built by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The C-123 was originally designed by Chase as an airborne assault glider before the addition of two !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! radial engines which were later augmented by two !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . The C-123 primarily served the US Air Force before being transferred to the US Coast Guard, Air Force Reserve and Air National Guard, and saw extensive use in the Vietnam War, most famously—or notoriously—as the platform for the spraying of !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! defoliant. Just over 300 were built, and the type was retired in 1980. (US Air Force photo)

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October 14, 1943 – Bombers of the US Eighth Air Force attack the ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt for a second time, suffering heavy losses. Strategic bombing in WWII was seen as a way to destroy both enemy war production and morale, and the ball bearing factories at Schweinfurt were seen as a “panacea target,” one which, if destroyed, would cripple the German war machine. Following an unsuccessful raid on the factories in August 1943, 291 !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! tried again in October, but more than 1,000 Luftwaffe fighters rose to meet them, and the ensuing carnage came to be known as Black Thursday. !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! escort planes ran short of fuel, leaving the bombers to continue to the target on their own and, by the end of the mission, 198 of the 291 bombers were either damaged or destroyed and 650 men were killed, wounded or MIA. The raid was ultimately a failure, as ball bearing production was not halted, and it would be four months before the Allies tried again, but this time, with more effective escort from the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . (US Air Force photo)

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Recent Aviation History Posts

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If you enjoy these Aviation History posts, please let me know in the comments. And if you missed any of the past articles, you can find them all at !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 13:06

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Re the P-40:

So many warbirds that were apparent flops were simply not being used as designed. Those “effective tactics” you mention were actually a step back. The P-40 was designed for a high diving speed, that being the relevant tactic at the time. As that doctrine had changed by WW2, the P-40 was largely outclassed. The anomaly of the AVG was due to the fact that Chennault recognized the shortfalls of the P-40 against the Zeros and prescribed tactics that made use of it’s advantages—namely that diving speed.

Basically, if I want a screwdriver, and design a screwdriver, and then my focus changes so a chisel would be more useful... I can use the screwdriver as a crude chisel, but it would work better to get myself a chisel and let the screwdriver just be a screwdriver, where it will enjoy great success.

Others that spring to mind:

MiG-3. Widely loathed, except for one squadron who-surprise-used it as the designers intended. Standard Russian doctrine kept planes low in support of ground forces. The MiG-3 was designed for speed and maneuverability at high altitudes, so of course it suffered when used in the accepted fashion. The pilot I know who liked it took it high and fast, dove on the enemy and got high again. Exactly as it was designed to do. They eventually found it made a good high-altitude reconnaissance craft... go figure. Whodathunkit.

P-39. Designed for lower-level work... such as was the order of the day at the time... and such as the Russians, who liked the plane, preferred.

MonkeePuzzle > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 13:20

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and lookie at what was making an odd noise over my head just a few weeks back (in Denver even.... eek)

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > MonkeePuzzle 10/14/2016 at 13:21

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Rutan kit?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 13:21

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1000 Messies and they could only take down 77 B17s. Tough plane.

MonkeePuzzle > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 13:22

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this thing is wild! I love learning about new aircraft

RallyWrench > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 13:24

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*cues up the Right Stuff...

Highly informative, as always. A Super Stallion came over the shop at really low altitude a couple of days ago, what a beast. Damn I love the P40, flaws and all.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/14/2016 at 13:35

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You’re not kidding. Thing was a brute.

http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/incredible-images-of-damaged-b-17-bombers-that-miracilously-made-it-home.html

https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/the-amazing-story-of-the-b-17-flying-fortress/

https://www.wired.com/2011/07/toughest-plane-ever/

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 13:47

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The B17 and P51 will always be my favorite planes.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/14/2016 at 13:50

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I’d lump the A10 and P47 in as well, but absolutely.

ttyymmnn > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/14/2016 at 14:01

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Lost a lot of airmen, though.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 14:02

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Looks like a Vari-EZ.

ttyymmnn > MonkeePuzzle 10/14/2016 at 14:02

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I think it looks even more wicked without the rotor.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 14:05

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I hope I didn’t imply that the P-40 was a flop. As you point out so well, it was an aircraft that just wasn’t up to one task, but excelled in another. They fought very effectively in the Mediterranean with the Brits, where the majority of the fighting was done below 16,000 ft. And, as much as I have read about the AVG and their diving tactics, I had never put it together with it playing to the strength of the P-40. I assumed it was simply a matter of speed and energy.

Thanks agains for your thoughtful comments. They always add a lot.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:06

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Absolutely, but if it had been any other plane, most probably wouldn’t have made it home.

MonkeePuzzle > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:06

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indeed. astounding that it could do either!

ttyymmnn > MonkeePuzzle 10/14/2016 at 14:07

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I find it interesting that, in the photo I used, the main rotor is gone but the tail rotor is still spinning.

MonkeePuzzle > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:12

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same here :P

ttyymmnn > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/14/2016 at 14:16

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I would be intrigued to see how the B-29 would have fared in those conditions. There were plans to fly the Superfort over Europe, but production delays meant that they were dedicated to the Pacific.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 14:18

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In retrospect, I wonder if that isn’t a Long-EZ. Either way, it’s definitely Rutan.

AfromanGTO > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:19

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Sikorsky S-72 is an interesting design. So it basically had 3 different versions of it. I wonder if it was interchangeable between the 3 designs.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:19

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No, you didn’t imply anything of the sort. Perhaps that wasn’t the best wording on my part, but it was the best fit I could think of. Just the way you said the tactics were developed triggered my memory and I wanted to point up that the tactics that made it a success to the AVG were “old tactics dusted off” rather than a new development.

On the subject of the Brits... there’s another thing the P-40 can be remembered for, jumpstarting the P-51 :)

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:22

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Fast, huge bombload, computer guided weaponry... It would have been pretty formidable. Though if the European war had gone on long enough to get B29's involved there would likely have been greater numbers of ME262's to counter them.

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 14:25

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If the European war had gone on long enough, a Silverplate might have dropped a nuke on Berlin.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:26

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The B29 was flying pretty much at the maximum ceiling of the jerry flak guns, so might have been interesting, but it also wouldn’t have been able to do much about the 262 if there was enough gas to fly one at the time.

ttyymmnn > AfromanGTO 10/14/2016 at 14:27

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I have no idea. But it would be cool if it were the Transformer of helicopters.

ttyymmnn > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 10/14/2016 at 14:28

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I think we were fortunate that the war ended before the 262 could be brought to bear in numbers.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 14:33

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Never know... I wonder if they’d have been willing to risk it. German antiaircraft defenses and fighter patrols were far superior to the Japanese. For one lone aircraft to try and penetrate would be almost suicidal, and the consequenses of having a nuke dropped short of the target in a densely populated place like Europe are not nice to consider. To make things worse, an escort for that kind of mission might cause more complications because of the quick getaway needed.

AfromanGTO > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 15:01

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Yes!

ttyymmnn > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 10/14/2016 at 15:03

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I was surprised to learn that the first nukes were actually intended for Berlin, but they weren’t ready yet. There was also concern about the nuke failing to detonate and having it fall (literally) into German hands. But the war ended before that came to fruition. I do have to wonder, though, if there was some sort of cultural bias at work that made it easier to drop the nuke on the Japanese rather than the Germans, considering our overwhelming European heritage in this country. I’m sure there wasn’t much hesitation to drop the bomb on “those yellow Jap bastards,” where dropping it on Germany may have given pause. Or maybe not. The world was pretty damned sick of war by 1945.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > ttyymmnn 10/14/2016 at 15:23

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It probably did make Truman sleep a little better at night, but I also feel like the fatalism of the Japanese defense mattered more. In Europe, we were liberating towns whereas in the Pacific it was more often than not a literal fight to the death. I’m sure that if the war was going a little better for the Germans and the people of Europe were ready to fight like the Japanese were and the reds were during Barbarossa, we’d have dropped the bomb on them. Alternatively, it’s possible that we would have intentionally let the reds get worn down to keep them from continuing west after the fall of Berlin.